The Every Lawyer

Marketing and Social Media for Lawyers with Sandra Bekhor and Garry Wise

Episode Summary

Julia discusses marketing and social media for lawyers with Sandra Bekhor and Garry Wise.

Episode Notes

How to get 2000 twitter followers without using clickbait.

Marketing consultant Sandra Bekhor and small firm founder and senior lawyer Garry Wise recently celebrated their 22nd anniversary. What's their secret? 

In this episode of the Every Lawyer, the Toronto power couple show that when it comes to marketing and social media for lawyers, as in all things including love, you have to give to receive. 

We thought about calling this episode "the early adopters get the clients" but embracing technological and societal developments early on is only part of the secret to building the firm you want.


Sandra Bekhor, Practice Development Consultant at Bekhor Management

Wise Law Office - Toronto Law Firm & Lawyers | Serving Ontario

Episode Transcription


IMHA Interview_October 2022_2

[Start of recorded material 00:00:00]

Sandra:             OK, so you feel the pressure of having to put content out there, otherwise you won’t exist. Nobody’s going to see you, Google will forget about you. But the truth is generic content is not what’s going to connect with people, what’s going to connect with people is your real authentic self and you know marketers like the word authentic, but that’s what we mean. So you know when Garry’s just following the trail because he’s having fun and he’s – well he’s excited about politics and he has something to say about it.

                          He writes you know these volatile columns and they get picked up immediately, like same day top of search results, I mean really picked up. But he’s not doing it for that purpose, he’s doing it because he was excited about something. And I think that’s what lawyer need to find again, they need to find that playful, excited element in their marketing that will invite them to be their real selves., because that’s what people want to connect with.

Garry.               The reason I think that you were excited possibly about doing a podcast on this topic is that there is a certain marriage between marketing and law that can emerge. When we use words like marketing and KPIs, it kind of takes some of the magic out of it, but at root what both of our professions really have in common is communications.

Interviewer:      Marketing and management consultant meets small law firm senior lawyer, is it a match made in heaven? No, actually well I think it’s a match made in – where did you two meet Sandra and Garry?

Garry:               Your opening sounded like a trailer for a romance comedy.

Interviewer:      [Great? 00:02:00].

Garry:               As it happens – we can oblige, because we have a great origin story. It all started one early evening – I was parked in front of my friend’s building, waiting to pick him up and she’s laughing, because she has no idea – she had no idea I was even going to think of telling this story. But there I am siting in my car waiting for my friend Dave, when suddenly this woman opens the door of my car and jumps in and says – I guess you’re my blind date. And I said – well no, but I can be if you like. And a look of terror came over her face as she jumped out of the car.

Interviewer:      Are you kidding?

Garry:               A couple of years later when we actually went on a real date, we found out that both of us had this story in our background of an apartment building on Shelbourne Avenue in Toronto where she had jumped into some guy’s car and some woman had jumped into my car looking for a blind date.

Sandra:             We just celebrated our 22nd anniversary last week.

Interviewer:      Wow, that is so great.

Sandra:             22nd anniversary of the first real date.

Interviewer:      I love that – well that is a very good start for this podcast. Thank you very much today I am with Sandra Bekhor and Garry Wise. And so I would like to thank you very much for joining us today on the Every Lawyer. I’m your host Julia and today we will talk about marketing and social media with Sandra and Garry, our very nice couple that we have today. It’s the first to have a couple in a podcast, so I’m very excited actually to have you here.

Garry:               Well great, thank you for having us.

Sandra:             Yes, thank you.

Interviewer:      So Sandra, you reached out to us actually about a podcast on marketing for small to midsized law firms and [unintelligible 00:03:50] attorneys on the Every Lawyer. Garry Wise, you are supposed to be a scary Toronto litigation lawyer, although you don’t sound like that at all. The impression you give on the internet is exactly the opposite of a scary Toronto lawyer, as we said. I’ve been through your website and your blog and this is definitely awesome. This is very – I mean you can find very useful, usable information on it. I feel like it’s so resourceful, someone can just go on your website and then the person will be just better informed on their own, they don't even need to reach out to you. And there's even a phone number – is it your personal phone number or is it like your professional one?

Garry:               It’s a firm number.

Interviewer:      OK.

Garry:               It’s a firm number.

Interviewer:      As a lawyer, you know we have all those ethic to be careful of – confidentiality, also how do you say it in English? To make sure that there's no conflict of interest, that's it. So do you feel sometimes that you have to be more careful when you're out there on the internet, if you review an article or you talk about politics or you talk about a case – so do you have those things in mind? And did you have any issue with that since you have a website?

Garry:               I have never written an article or a tweet about any case that I've actually participated in – nor would I, for all the reasons you just outlined. My approach has been more of a legal news and updates sort of hub, which is what we do on Twitter now, it's what I always did on my blog, particularly when that was my primary focus.

                          But never personal, never – and there are lawyers out there who do go [maybe?] dangerously close in this area, but everything from talking about their cases to comments about opposing counsel and comments about judges that probably would be best left unsaid in a public way. So yeah, there are people doing that, but I'm old school, like I say, remember that I come from that background where lawyers just didn't advertise, we didn't market, we didn’t do anything. So I've always proceeded with caution and I'm very comfortable, that's probably the best way to go.

Interviewer:      Yeah, I think you’re old school or just good practice actually, you're having the best practice of how to use your social media.

Garry:               I’m not sure those are different concepts.

Interviewer:      Right, I agree. OK, well that’s very interesting because you started your law firm in 1986. So prior to that you didn't have any websites. So did you see like a major difference once you started to have a website for instance with your clients, did you start to have more clients or a diversity of clients that you didn't have before?

Garry:               Well, it had a huge impact in so many different ways. Yes, the clients started finding us, but what was more interesting to me, especially when I started my blog, which again was started as kind of a project that I was doing for personal reasons without any thought that it was going to have any reach. But what started happening is I would go to court and you know, while we were outside in the waiting areas waiting for our cases to be called, my fellow lawyers would walk up to me and say – hey Garry, I read your blog yesterday.

                          And suddenly there was profile emerging, which was just like another one of those fortuitous accidents that nobody could have contemplated at the beginning, because we weren't thinking about that. So profile began to emerge, the Law Society started calling and the CBA and other people who are doing [unintelligible 00:07:46] practice, programming and CPDs and I started to be invited to do a few of those. And in the meanwhile – yes, the practice really grew as a result of it. [Unlike? 00:08:07] I think the way you need to approach it today, where you probably do need to have as you described a real actionable plan.

                          Back then we were just winging it and we were doing it for fun and we were doing it not anticipating or with any goal – not anticipating any results or with any specific goals in mind. It was just something that was evolving in real time and as one of the early adopters, it was just a real fun, great experience that wound up doing excellent things for the firm professionally as well.

Interviewer:      And do you feel like today because like 20 years later I feel like more people are on the internet, more people have blogs. Twitter also is a thing, I saw that you had a Twitter account and you have more than 2,000 followers, so people are way more out there. Do you feel like today there are some downsides that you haven't seen before that you didn't expect from having a website and a blog?

Garry:               Well, I think different platforms are more potent in one year as opposed to the next or the previous year. It's always changing in terms of the – you know what's actually happening online and what's doing well for people generally. So that's one piece of it, but I think the need to adapt and build and keep refreshing is more important today than it's ever been.

                          Not just because of the number of other people whose eyeballs you're competing with or for, with other firms, but also because the technology keeps changing. And as the technology changes, the requirements change, so I just think the short answer to a very great question is you’ve got to just keep evolving, you got to keep going with the flow and expect change.

Interviewer:      That is why I also would like to jump to you Sandra here, because I saw you were listening, you were laughing a little bit as well while Garry was talking. And would you say actually that social media and marketing are a real match in heaven? Because I feel like we have Facebook, we have Twitter, we have LinkedIn, Instagram, YouTube, even TikToks for that matter – am I missing anything?

Sandra:             Well, I think for the purpose of lawyers, that's a good list. There are others, you know and I mean some lawyers who target the building sector may want some of the social media sites that are a bit more visual, like Pinterest. And there are some more community focussed lawyers that are in the know with communities that use Whatsapp and – you know and that's a very good way to market to a very specific niche and build relationships with influencers in those communities.

Interviewer:      Lawyers being influencers, that's the next thing I'd like to see. But do you have any best practices that should be applied for all?

Sandra:             Yes, definitely there are best practices. I'd like to pick up on something that relates to the story Garry just told as a way of inviting a different way of viewing this to the listeners. You know, when Garry describes starting his website and starting his blog, he's like – you know almost like an excited kid tinkering around with this new toy – well, let's see what I can build here, you know. And [nobody’s looking? 00:11:28] and there's no goals, there's no metrics, no KPIs, there's no pressure of paying for Google ads or whatever, it's just fun.

Garry:               My first website was way back I think in around 2000. That was before Google, before websites were a thing and it really just seemed like a cool project to do. A friend of mine was a graphic designer he had just recently connected with a tech guy who was learning how to write an HTML and how to build websites and I was their guinea pig. And we said let's build a website together and we did and you think of websites from those days as being very, very bare bones and just text, but that's not what we did.

                          We actually did a real graphic design website with photos and colours and some thought to layout. And at that stage like we honestly had no idea that a website was ever going to matter in a professional sense at all, it was more just something we put up. But even from the outset, the thought was always – let's get some information out there, There were FAQs that people always asked in a first meeting and I think our idea was let's get that information online, you know and very easy to digest sound bites and it evolved from there.

                          And it was you know several years later when much to my surprise I started getting phone calls from people who saw me on Yahoo [unintelligible 00:13:39]. Before the Google [search? 00:13:32] was a thing and little by little that built and then maybe it's something we'll talk about a little bit later. But the emergence of Google had a huge impact not just on the availability of websites, but as Sandra will probably tell you, Google started writing the rules for what websites needed to look like and what needed to be there and how to optimize.

                          And it was at that point that it kind of lost me in terms of being creative fun, because the entire profession started to build for Google as opposed to for clients. And that's something I've always resisted, but the forces of gravity are really there in that direction. So just maybe plant that as a seed for future discussion as we move forward in the podcast today.

Sandra:             And what he didn't tell you is – and I'll ask him to follow up on this, but he actually wrote a lot about politics and that helped to elevate his presence. And the reason I'm mentioning this in response to your question about best practice, is because I think a lot of lawyers today, they feel frozen. You know, what am I supposed to do with my social media? What am I supposed to do in terms of creating an identity? And what they end up doing is it's just very generic feeling.

Garry:               Sandra, I think her central philosophy is about authenticity. And about presenting yourself as you are in a way – on the assumption that there's going to be at least something appealing about you, you might as well focus on that and get it out there. And create a situation where the person the people will meet with as their lawyer, when they actually have an appointment, is consistent with the person they've seen online.

                          So you're not you're not going to present yourself online as something different from what you are, but rather you focus on what you are and that can be to the essence of your professional philosophy. You know, for us we – I think it's really true of our firm that the human touch is a real big piece of what we do. And we deal with people who are going through some of the worst experiences of their lives on the first day they meet us, whether it's employment law or family law or injury claims or problems in their businesses.

                          These are real crises that bring people to the table to come and see us and we need to deal with them as humans first. And I think that since that is the way I approach things, I think it's good to communicate that [online? 00:16:40] in subtle ways. And Sandra as a marketer can tell you all kinds of ways through using everything from language to color that certain impressions can get created, that's kind of her expertise. But for me, I think the most important thing is be yourself. So if you've got something to say about a legal issue or a political issue or you're happy or not happy about a case that was decided that's all in the news, we'll put it out there, because chances are lots of people will read it and it will resonate.

                          And I can think of quite a few occasions where people decided to retain it because they liked my blog. That was one of the – that was the icebreaker – oh, I read your blog and that's how we would begin a discussion. So being yourself, obviously be smart about that. But that's what I've learned from Sandra and her approach probably above and beyond everything – get to the real core of who you are. What you want to do professionally in terms of the kind of work you want to do and focus on it, but how you want to do it and focus on that as well. Did I summarize that well, Sandra?

Sandra:             Yes, you did great. I love how you brought in – you brought in the fact that some people will resonate, because I think that the reason a lot of lawyers will hesitate to be themselves, it's actually scarier than it sounds. You know I get it, because when you put yourself out there and your example is a good one, because sharing your views on politics is very divisive and some people are not going to agree. So it's scary when you're trying to build your practice to do something that you know some of your market will not like, so you’re right away alienating that part of it. But while you do that, you're strengthening the bond with the other part and the strengthening of that bond, it makes you irreplaceable.

Interviewer:      Do you have any potential pitfalls, Sandra that you’ve seen in your career – what we should avoid when we put ourselves out there?

Sandra:             Yes, don't be a wallflower.

Interviewer:      That’s good.

Sandra:             It’s called social media. Social – it’s in the first word – social media OK. So yes and this goes back to that feeling of being frozen. You know, you wouldn't believe how often clients asked me – could you just read over my post before I put it on LinkedIn? I don't want anyone to see that I said something that wasn't smart or it just didn't position me properly. You know, people are very nervous about how they will be perceived and it feels like there's a lot at stake even from just a sort of throwaway post.

                          So that puts them into this position of – OK, well I won't do it. I’ll do it, but if you're not going to do anything, you're taking a different kind of risk. Now you're stuck with what you have and you're not going to go after your goals. And not only that, you're going to go backwards, because everyone else is going forwards. You know, don't be a wallflower – well, what does that mean? It doesn't just mean throw yourself into the deep end of the pool and be uncomfortable.

                          What it means is take the time to come up with a strategy, this is not something you either have it or you don't. This is the same as marketing planning. You could do a whole marketing plan just on LinkedIn, I really mean it, like a whole marketing plan just on how you use LinkedIn. So you spend the time, sit down and yes sit down with a professional and figure out what is your point of difference? How does your social media strategy take what you've done on your website and take it further, so that everything is consistent, but it keeps going. And it does it in a way that is relatable, that is interesting, that is – that pops from the noise and doesn't do it in a way that's forced, but actually leverages what's already there.

                          So if your team is funny, you know you have a culture that you joke around and you happen to do that a little bit with your clients, bring your sense of humor into your social media. Yeah, if you're controversial, if you're dramatic, if you say things that throw people – sorry take people by surprise, then use that and that may not all by itself be a strategy, but it is an important ingredient. So take the time to figure out how are you going to do it, get the training that you need and get the help to get comfortable with the posts until you sort of get into a groove.

Garry:               I agree with what Sandra said, but I'd like to leap to the defense or a partial defense of wallflowers.

Interviewer:      Go ahead, we’re listening.

Garry:               Because even if you're not comfortable putting your personal self out there and I think most lawyers are cautious about that for good reasons. But even if you're cautious about putting your personal self out there, you don't need to be cautious about demonstrating in a traditional, conservative, lawyerly way that you’re competent and that you know your stuff. And you don't necessarily need to do that by writing textbook chapters, you can do that with one sentence tweets.

                          You know if an important case in employment law has come out, you're probably first going to read about it on Barry Fisher’s blog or through posts by a small group of employment lawyers in the province that put that information out there. And they're not out there in a personal way by any means, but what they're doing is they're building network and they're building community. And among their peers, at least to start.

                          They're developing a reputation for expertise and also for being go to people to find out – through whom you can find out what happened in court yesterday. So even if you want to be cautious about sort of maintaining that line between your privacy and your professional work, there's still a way to do it. And I mean I've just identified only one, but back to another thing that Sandra said – find a way that you can do it that’s authentic to you. 

                          There is a way that will work for you and it's probably not going to be about imitating, it's probably going to be about coming to something that you're comfortable with and that you're going to be happy to do. You know if you decide that LinkedIn is going to be your focus or Twitter or a blog are going to be your focus, I think you need to develop your voice. Just as you do as a lawyer, your voice will emerge over time as you gain confidence and experience.

                          I think the same is true with online writing – that little by little you get a sense of what works for you. You know if you wind up – and it happened to me a couple of times I guess where I said things that the bad guys took offense to and that's OK, the bad guys aren't going to be my clients. But sometimes you fight the fights and there's value in that, but again even with something like that, you need to decide how much of your time you want to devote to that.

                          So yeah, so I mean you develop boundaries based on what you need to do at any given time. And then Sandra can tell you about all kinds of other people who are doing very well now on social media by focussing on one of their quirks or one of their interests or something in their personal backgrounds that might be relevant. And they’re building whole online personalities around that. Sandra tell her about the chicken lady.

Sandra:             OK, so I did a couple of events – actually I wrote a chapter in a book on LinkedIn marketing techniques. The book was written by Marc Halpert, published by the ABA and my chapter was on tying LinkedIn to your marketing plan. So then Marc and I conducted a couple of events on LinkedIn, we invited people. And for one of those events, a lawyer who actually has chickens – she raises chickens – this is her personal passion, in her backyard.

                          And so she went through this decision-making process – do I share about this, because it's not just – oh, you know like someone who has a dog and I love my dog. This was huge for her, she raises these chickens and it is her – it’s a life passion, she really, really cares about this. So she is completely transparent about it in her marketing – this is absolutely part of her identity and we're still talking about her. She's a lovely lady, she comes across as professional, she comes across as intelligent and you remember her. So just because she has this part of her life that is not traditional, doesn't make her less professional and it’s [so admirable? 00:27:02].

Garry:               You can’t get it out of your head once you have the picture there.

Sandra:             Well and it tells you something about her. So if you're going to be the type of client who wants somebody who is caring about the environment, who is interested in you know, nurturing animals or whatever it is that drew her to this personal passion, you're going to connect with her in a way that will be for a lifetime. That bond is deep and that's the value in doing this.

Interviewer:      And I think it also adds to when we talk about access to justice. So we're trying to stay away from all this idea that the profession of being a lawyer is so serious and so – yeah, so inaccessible. So I feel like if you give a bit of your personal life out there and you share your interests – your passion, it makes lawyers more human as well and maybe for clients, it might be easier or free to connect with them.

                          And as you say Garry, you get to meet people who are sometimes traumatized, who are going through very difficult stuff and they are in a difficult part of their life. And to know that they are before people that just enjoy you know chickens or that they just enjoy going on a ski or – ski trip or whatever – [they love? 00:28:19] politics like you do, I think it also helps for access to justice in general. So it's very interesting for that part as well.

Sandra:             I so agree with you Julia, because that's how you start a dialogue. When you become approachable and then you're no longer on this high throne that's the professional, now someone can actually talk to you.

Interviewer:      Yeah, no definitely – I totally agree. I really like that, I mean I've never been much of a social media, but now I’m kind of thinking – OK, but that’s a really good idea, I should get there. But do you have any – I love those storytelling – those examples. But do you have any example in mind of a – you know a creative use of social media? So we've talked about blog, we know the CBA National Magazine for instance. We talked about LinkedIn and kind of know all – a bit more, because LinkedIn I feel is more like the professional one. But any social media that is maybe not – a bit not there yet, but is coming, like that we should keep an eye on.

Sandra:              I think – Garry, I think the story of how you and your firm created Legally Adulting would be a good story here.

Garry:               I guess three or four years ago, before COVID, the idea of wouldn't it be nice to actually be out there with the public and actually meeting people and talking to people as a way of really – I think partly because it's interesting and it's fun. But partly just because there's something a little impersonal about simply having an online presence. So anyhow we developed a program where then the two associate lawyers in my firm basically hosted events in coffee shops.

                          It was called Legally Adulting, it was targeted to 20 and 30 somethings who were just starting out in their careers and in their domestic lives. And really it was a Q&A session or a series of Q&A sessions that allowed people to come and meet with our lawyers, ask their questions. There'd be a little bit of an introductory talk that our lawyers would do, but particularly when we did it in person and much to my surprise, people couldn't wait to get in and ask questions.

                          And the questions were personal and again we talked earlier about sort of maintaining the boundary or the line. Well my generation, that line is very different than today's line for younger people who are much more out there. So people would come to our sessions and they will ask questions about family law or they would ask questions about things that related to their family members or their parents, life challenges that they had and actually get some really valuable – not necessarily legal advice on the spot, because that's something we can't do too publicly.

                          But they would get a really good starting point and then after the program was over, we would always stick around and that's when people would come and talk to us. And occasionally somebody who would retain us, but it was more a matter of getting out there and we were we were building up a little bit of a neighborhood following and neighbourhood was one of our focusses. We wanted to do it close to our office so that people who are going to be nearby to our offices would also comes to these things, so little by little it really, really evolved into something.

                          And when COVID happened, of course that shut down in terms of the public stuff, but we tried to do them online. We did do three or four of them, but it's very difficult to build the same kind of interaction and personal connection through online stuff. But even still, we have tons of people sending their questions in advance of the programs and using the chat functions to ask questions. So it became quite interactive and I thought they were really successful programs.

Sandra:             So I just wanted to add, you know tying this to the previous comments, that this is a social media strategy that Garry just described and getting out there actually a live event strategy. But really it actually becomes integral to the whole marketing plan, because when you have something like this that your firm commits to, it creates all kinds of reasons to post, reasons to announce. So if you have a newsletter – OK here, come to our next event – watch our little video from the last event. Oh, submit questions – look at these questions, look at the summary of our questions. Now you have content for the whole year.

Interviewer:      That's true, yeah and you can use it [unintelligible 00:33:17] as you say. I mean how did you manage also to make sure that you don't send too much information – that you don't send too much newsletters or too much emails. Or if you have clients or people who follow you, how do you make that balance between being annoying and being resourceful and useful, you know. I see you laughing, that's always something I wonder.

Garry:               It's a great question – it’s a great question.

Sandra:             Yeah, it is a great question.

Garry:               And you know, there are people – a couple, who are prominent lawyers on social media who I ultimately had to block, because I felt like they were spamming. You know, there's one lawyer in particular who was also out there about some political stuff and that was OK and I would see the tweets that this lawyer would put out there. But when people commented on her tweets and then she started to retweet all the comments and it became like an onslaught where my entire feed on Twitter was being taken up by this person’s content. At that point it became too much and if I feel that way as a fellow lawyer, I could imagine some people in the general public will not like that.

                          But you know, back to where we were earlier, the people who are really into that political issue and really following that, they’re dying to see every retweet, because it gives them a sense that their beliefs have traction. And that their way of thinking has currency out there, it reinforces that and it reinforces the bond, so I’m not sure there are any mistakes. I think that if you do it well, there are going to be people who are going to be attracted to what you're saying. And perhaps [some who aren’t? 00:35:16] or how you're saying it, but everybody's got to have their own balance.

Interviewer:      I have like a last question for you, because we talked about the internet, we talked about having those maybe hybrid kind of social media where put – you see there’s an event and then you go directly in coffee shops and you talk with the public. And could you – do you think we're going there, because you imagine a completely social media internet-based law firm that could ever become a thing?

Garry:               Yes. Well, I think we're almost there. You know, I’m probably not alone in the profession in wondering what the actual function of an office – a physical office space is going to be another two or three or five years from now. And I can think of a lot of really good reasons related to building your team to have an office space, but I can't imagine being a client wanting to fight traffic to come and spend money to park in a lawyer's office to wait in a waiting room for the lawyer to be ready for the meeting.

                          To then sit down and talk for half an hour or 45 minutes and then fight traffic all the way home again, when you can do it all from the comfort and the security of your own living room or your own office, save all that time. So really the question of what the function of a physical office space is going to be is one of those things that's evolving in real time right now. And during COVID, we were all operating that way. You know, my office was effectively closed for almost two years.

                          We had to very rapidly adapt technology wise to get all of our information and our communications up into the cloud. Zoom arrived in a big way to fill the void in terms of being able to connect that way. Our phone systems all became virtual, so that we didn't actually need to be anywhere, we can get our calls forwarded to our cell lines. So aside from the sheer comfort of being in the office and sitting on a chair and putting my feet up on the desk, I'm not sure how much more I can do there than they can do here, except those watercooler talks are so invaluable.

                          And when we're in the office and there's a small question that comes up about an issue and somebody can walk over to someone else's office and say – hey, what do you think? In five minutes you have an answer to something that might have taken a week by email to go back and forth on. So if we can find a way to replicate that really critical social cultural component of working together as a team virtually, it's going to happen. And maybe the office is going to evolve into something totally different.

Interviewer:      And Sandra, do you want to add anything to that?

Sandra:             Well, you know my philosophy has always been choose one thing and do it really, really well. So actually today there's an astonishing number of ways to market your firm. And it's overwhelming, it's overwhelming for lawyers to think about which one should they do? How many should they do? And then when they start looking at their competition and they start feeling like – I should be doing this and I should be doing that and then the stress just goes up and up and up. But you don't get further by doing more different things, you get further by doing one thing really, really well.

                          And you know the thing that you're going to be doing really, really well, it's best to tie that to the talents and interests that you have and that your team has. So for example if the people at your office, they are reluctant to get in front of the camera, they don't really want to be speaking in front of an audience or doing videos. Maybe they're good writers, so maybe train them to do really – you know, expressive blogging, do blogging better and get known for that.

                          Learn how to write really good headlines, learn how to post them on social media and ask questions, so that people will get conversations going. On the other hand, if your team is a little bit more playful and they are good on camera, well then don't ask them to write, just get that TikTok going or do something that works with what you have. But keep going and keep practicing it and don't give up when it doesn't work right at the beginning, just keep massaging it till you get it to work.

Interviewer:      Sandra, I must say you are very inspiring – I need to tell you that. Garry, sorry I [unintelligible 00:40:32], but I really had to tell you, because since the beginning when you talk, I mean I feel like we're talking about marketing, but it's also about self growth or something. I mean it's really nice.

Sandra:             Well, that's exactly what it is. I'm so glad you said that Julia, that actually is my whole point. You know when lawyers say they don't really want to be bothered with the marketing piece, they're losing sight of the fact that marketing can give them what they want. And what I would suggest to anybody who's still hesitating about that, just make some notes about what you want your firm to really look like in the next few years.

                          How do you want your firm to change? How do you want your own job to change? And what does that look like? And then start thinking about the gaps between that dream world and today and how are you going to overcome those gaps? Well, marketing is one of your tools. Is it about putting your associates in a spotlight? Well, LinkedIn can do that for you, figure out a way to do it. And whatever it is, use marketing as a tool, it's there to serve you.

Interviewer:      Garry, did you want to add something?

Garry:               Well first of all, I agree with you that Sandra really is inspiring. And I think the most important piece of advice I have is don't stop just because you're succeeding. And this is what I've seen over and over again that people for – you know the first five or ten years are out there and suddenly they get so busy that they just don't have the time for it. And before you know it the next generation of practitioners is out there and getting much deserved limelight.

                          But this is not a one-time project, it's a commitment to communicating with the public on an ongoing basis using social media or whatever comes next as your vehicle for doing so. And you need to stick to it and as I said earlier, you have to keep rebuilding whatever it is you're doing and refreshing it and that's where it's really handy to have someone like Sandra nearby, because the coaching that I’ve been able to get from her through conversations, just like the one we’re having right now, has been really invaluable.

Interviewer:      Yeah, I agree and it has been a really enlightening conversation. Thank you very much for talking to us today Sandra Bekhor and Garry Wise. If you enjoyed this podcast, please give us a rating and hit subscribe for more great CBA podcasts. Also, just like Sandra, please don’t hesitate to reach out to us directly at So thank you very much and have a good one.

Garry:               Thanks Julia, that was great.

Sandra:             Yes, thank you very much, that was fun.

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